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D3CL 1v1 League season 2

Written by: Mag | Date: 2013-05-13 08:54:57 | Related to: D3CL Diablo 3 PvP

Diablo 3 Clan League Logo Yesterday at 21:00 CET we have launched the second 1v1 league season on D3CL. Of course we have started on both server - European and American. The new PvP rules apply, you can find them on our forum in this topic. Will be posted on main website in the evening. We know the rules are not perfect. It's very difficult to create someting that will work in all cases, taking into account the difference in gear, dueling skills and strategies, not always consistent with fair play. I hope, despite everything, you will try them out and won't be such a bad thing :)

Leagues will last at least until the end of June.

In conclusion, I ask you to advertise D3CL League where you can. The more players, the better :)


Forti 2013-05-09 08:47
How long league will last?

Mr.Mag 2013-05-10 10:37

One Vs One:


-  In duels versus the “Monk” and “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.
-  In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.

Demon Hunter

-  The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
-  In duels versus the “Monk” the skill “Impale” with rune “Chemical Burn” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the passive skill “Brooding” is not allowed.


-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Dashing Strike” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.

Witch Doctor

-  In duels versus “Barbarian” is not allowed to use the skill “Firebats”.
-  In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and “Monk” can use only one of the skills “Firebats” and “Haunt”.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” can use only one of the skills “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders”, “Firebats”, “Haunt” and “Spirit Barrage”
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Horrify”.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the passive skill “Blood Ritual”.
Mr.Mag 2013-05-10 10:48
Registration is now open
DarkRaven 2013-05-10 11:13
one question, why not allow the "charge" rune on wc, the one that gives more fury, although not banning relentless is a big thing already

Mr.Mag 2013-05-10 11:18
ask Euronymous :)
Forti 2013-05-10 12:44
Rulez useless like always. WD is still the best class. Why no wotb vs monk? It doesn't change anything.

But will we see.

by tapatalk

Iria 2013-05-10 21:10
Tanky Barb will still stalemate or beat DH, tanky WD will still beat DH, Wizard are strong to DH now with all life regenerating skills/passives disabled. Not sure about the other match-ups since I don't play other than a DH. I really think the DH vs WD rules should be double-checked.
N0F3aR 2013-05-10 21:38
No WotB against wizards? Are you crazy or what? DO you know what excatly does wizard right now? Perma disable with buffed dmg (and that is when i have 37% dodge) I can asure i have played against wizards and i can tell you NO cc breaker means no win. You really could do at least WotB allowed but no rune "Insanity". And that is how i will play. Or ban doulbe disable effect of Wizards.

And War Cry no rune another curious move. You still think barbs is op compared to dh? Cuz i dont. But if you ban something let be rune "impunity". "Hardened Wrath" doesnt give the same protection as "impunity". Or if you think this is still mega op, ban this runes, but allow the others.

And WD. Banning bats, but they are still have 2% life regen. For 150k life WD that is a lot. I am not sure if barb can allow something else but WotB. And that 15 sec window is mostly not enough.

Euronymous 2013-05-11 00:54
DH complaining Barbs still win or stalemate, Barb complaining they are too weak now vs. DH. Good stuff.
Perfect example of how you can't be everybody's darling.

Iria, I respect your opinion and love your enthusiasm for D3 pvp. What is it with your obsession for rankings though? Every time I read your posts I feel like I'm reading the current NBA power rankings on ESPN.
It looks like WDs started the season as the dark horse for you and have been climbing steadily since then. The match-up went from favorable to DHs over slightly favorable to DHs to about even. Couple weeks ago they even overtook DHs in your 1.07 rankings and after the blockbuster trade for Firebats in 1.08 they are obviously on a whole nother level similar to the Heat ;)
Since either the future hall of famer Haunt or the most improved player of the year candidate Firebats are out for at least the beginning of the 1.08 season, some experts think that WDs will struggle early on and it might be the time for DHs to shine again...

I also think you list Wiz too high in your rankings. I don't see them as a playoff team yet.
link1313 2013-05-11 01:56
Thanks for starting up the season. Some interesting rule choices. Should be fun for some matches.
Forti 2013-05-11 06:59
Why would you not put the official rulez on main website? Many players dont read forum, and the forum is "hard to read".
Mr.Mag 2013-05-11 10:28
dont worry. rules will be posted also on website :)
Iria 2013-05-11 11:08
Sorry if I sounded very aggressive in my last post. I have met Wizards that have done so much damage so quickly, that without a Boar to eat a few thunder bolts or a Preparation, I would have little chance. A good Wizard will take 3-4 of my critical Impales before dying, but with Wave of Force, Mirror Images, Teleport, etc. it can be hard to land those. Without at least one form of mitigation (Boar or Battle Scars), the fights will be very short. Shorter so with lower EHP DH. This is not to say it is impossible, but the duels will revolve around luck for me (in dodging thunder). I think the duel is much closer now but I dislike RNG being a major component of a duel (similar to my problem with the Chemical Burn ban).

As for the DH vs Barb discussion, I have tested with high EHP Barbs and I simply don't do enough damage against them if they can survive 5 critical Impales in a row (landing 5, let alone critically hitting with 5 in a row is near impossible). If the Barb cannot die, the duel is basically a stalemate until the DH makes a mistake (or runs out of discipline). I actually would prefer Threatening Shout ban over War Cry ban if that is considered and possibly limit passives to only 2 defensive ones (any 2 of Inspiring Presence, Nerves of Steel, Tough as Nails, and Relentless) with the last passive something else (Unforgiving, Superstition, Ruthless, etc.). Of course, this would require more testing and I don't know for sure if that is enough or too much (I think it is enough for high EHP Barbs). I define a high EHP Barb as one that takes less than 20% health damage from a critical Impale with everyone applying all their buffs and debuffs.

For the DH vs WD match, upon testing, I think Rapid Fire evens the playing field a lot but Bats will hard counter that lol. The no Haunt and Fire Bats rule might be ok, but I don't have enough testing yet to be sure. Again, I am sorry if I sounded too aggressive.

Euronymous 2013-05-11 13:21
You didn't sound aggressive to me, I just find it unwarranted to call for rules to be double checked or to start making rankings without thorougly testing them.
D3 dueling is heavily RNG thanks to crits, even more for you since your mitigation mostly is RNG. If you can't reach the threshold to kill your opponent you will lose or force a stalemate. Banning a few skills here and there to "balance" the game won't change that.

I don't see a way out of this except for forcing people to re-gear with non-crit gear and limiting/banning the ways to regen HP. I can see it being more fun than the current dueling but it's probably not gonna happen because it would require a large group of players willing to test and play like that.
Here is a vid of lvl9 DH vs. Barb that shows similar gameplay (low crit, regen limit):

DarkRaven 2013-05-11 13:43
one of the problems of dh vs barb is that legacy dh is almost like a different class

u can't ban any fury generating skill for barb because they will be just sitting ducks vs good legacy dh.

about the passives, are there really barbs that dont use unforgiving vs dhs? that rule would sound a bit odd Iria because all barbs use 2 defensive passives (insp presence  + relentless or nerves) and unforgiving, how would they be able to catch a dh without unforgiving is beyond me.

good wizards will probably have a nice time finally, but as euronymous says, they maybe deserve it :P

im still curious about stalemate rules and how can these be checked, im pretty sure a barb can stalemate vs almost everyone if he feels he has a gear disadvantage ( the same maybe applies to tanks from other classes, like tank wd or tank legacy dh) what rules are there to prevent this?
ximae 2013-05-11 14:03
and the issue u posted previously about starting the match in order to choose gear skills that counter the oponents skills gears. there could be situatutions where we could never give the ok to start the game if its a constant skill/gear change to suit what opponent is doing while he is doing the same.

what do u think of this solution: challenger has to setup his gear first and get the ok then its the guy who got challenged turn to do so. Then for every round the victor has to go first if there is to be any changes. An other solution could be that the looser of the round can veto any changes in the victor, so basically u can only change stuff around when u loose a round or if the looser of the round agrees to it.
DarkRaven 2013-05-11 14:15
I personally would like that players change skills and items in another game and when entering the game with your opponent you can't change anything.

the same can be applied after a round when someone wants to change something.

one players leaves and creates another game where he changes whatever he wants and hopes to counter the possible changes that the opponent makes, there will be a lot of mind games but to me this sounds like a fair solution.

if my wizard opponent doesnt use mirror images and i use hota, i can ask to change skills after round 1... he may think i add rend but i may not do anything while he uses mirror images instead of a dps skill vs my hota. all this has to be done outside of inspect radius, so the best it would be to do it in a different game.
ximae 2013-05-11 14:21

dunno even though the mind games part sounds fun, it could end up being a little bit too tedious if we have to be switching games eachround.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-11 14:28
yep agree on raven. if you still want warcry in the game you have to allow charge! rune.
(+20 exra fury)
If the intention of banning warcrys 20% allresi bonus was to lower the barbs ehp then its the right way to give the barb more fury and less ehp.
Baharoth 2013-05-11 14:58

Hi everyone,

i am new to the league but i have been reading here for quite a while now and i gave that issue Raven mentioned some thought as well and i think i found a nice solution for that.

Both players choose the gear they want to use in the duell, but instead of putting it on, they put it into their inventory. Then both players enter the chapel naked. One goes to the southwest the other to the notheast end. There they put their gear on and choose the specc they want to use. After the 30 sec cd for switching specc is over both can say go and start the duell. Should be faster than game changing everytime and works well with the method to prevent gear swaps since it reduces the amount of stuff u have to pick up cuz half of ur inventory is full with the gear u will use.

What do u guys think about that?
Euronymous 2013-05-11 15:17
These "poker style" or "mind game" rules are intriguing but there are so many cheese builds out there that you will auto-lose against with the wrong spec that it will be really annoying to play like that all the time. It also encourages players to go with more conservative builds to minimze the risk of losing which will lead to more stalemates.
For the few situations where you can't come to an agreement with your opponent you should call a judge who will then enforce these "poker style" rules.

The intention of Warcry "no rune" is to lower the barbs EHP a bit while keeping everything else the same - not as a trade-off between EHP and fury.

There is definitately a need for stalemate rules, still looking for a good solution for this. Most suggestions I have seen go like this: "after a certain amount of time, players go back to the chapel and choose a more offensive build". The problem is, how do you define "more offensive" to make it fair for both players?
Forti 2013-05-11 16:04

This is nice. Really lov this movie.
Monk 2013-05-11 16:20
Mend something in duels Monk vs Wd ( terrible duel )

haunt baned
horrify rune Frightening Aspect  baned
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-11 17:07

pfff nobody will use warcry without rune overpower crushing advanced is already near equal to a full runed warcry skill
Euronymous 2013-05-11 17:48
Then don't use it if you can live without the fury regen. Barbs were fine in the test season vs. DH and I don't see how the change from "no warcry" to "warcry (no rune)" will have a negative impact on you. Patch didn't change anything unless DHs come up with a way to utilize the buffed rapid fire. Until then I see no reason to change the rules.
DarkRaven 2013-05-11 17:48
crushing advance gives no fury and u have it only for a few seconds, vs dh i would say wc is better even with no-rune, but that may be only personal preference. The reason they re-allowed wc was to not nerf fury too much vs legacy dh, because it just forced barbs to just get even tankier while not having the ability to catch dhs.

as for fury gain, threatening gives more fury overall but u have to spam it in the air when u have it, and then u may not have it when u are near the opponent.

even when i tried without wc i didnt use OP but ground stomp which also gives some fury... when it lands

I know this is for barb v dh, but in other matchups where stun is present OP is even worse, because u can't use while in cc, so u have to preemptively use it, which is impossible
Forti 2013-05-11 19:22

Agree. Versus wd duel is terrible. Auto non aim attack + hex + spirit walk... ehhm.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-11 19:42
skilled dh will kill all anyway with the bugged new rapid fire rockets and ballistic passives ... autoaim 800 k dmg rockets for the win

no problem for me anyway i can use 18 mio ehp setup
DarkRaven 2013-05-11 20:02
well... I'm sure all barbs have a full tank stalemate gear but we really should have rules against this.

I can easily go to 190k hp with 950 ar unbuffed, 12k armor, 1500 dex and -35% vs elites (4 piece Bt, litany, ss and 7 more on chest) and I don't think there are many dhs that can kill that.

actually even skorn barbs in insanity with hota and rend, while I'm standing still, have problems against this setup.

the problem is that there aren't any rules ro prevent this kind of tanks and it's kinda silly.

any wd can also get 200k hp too and be unkillable by barbs and any legacy dh can tank up and run until he has preparation again... or a tanky tempest rush monk.

barbs can get tankier faster but all classes have stalemate potential and in a competitive environment more and more players will try to abuse this.
Euronymous 2013-05-11 20:18
What would you suggest to prevent stalemates?
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-11 23:05
same as it is just right now

if u have a draw the tank has to change 1 item to offensive and retry duel ... if still draw a secund ... and if needed 3rd and so on until someone is able to win

if they dont agree a judge is needed...

i always play like this and it works fine only not vs damn  wd :( there only a draw is possible or win for wd. dont know if it changes after wotb allowed again but in my opinion its still hopeless without weapon swich abuse
DarkRaven 2013-05-11 23:09
I guess it's a matter of perspective.

The problem is not adding "too much" ehp but rather adding ehp while losing the ability to kill the opponent.

If a barb has XXmil ehp while still having 60k dps than he has the gear of gods and deserves to rofl stomp everybody.... but if he has XXmil ehp with less than 30k dps than he is a troll that can't kill anyone and deserves to be disqualified after doing this vs 2-3 opponents.

There should be a minimum dps requirement rather than max ehp limit.

BUT, checking dps between rounds is impossible and also dps with various aps and cc is a lot different. A barb with 90k dps with 1 aps does a lot more than one with 120k and 1.5 aps. The same I think it applies to other classes too.

For example, for barbs at least 50k dps should be a minimum, if he has less (but no less than 35) he should be forced to use battle rage... but a rule like this could never be enforced.

I would be more inclined to propose sanctions to players abusing this, but in most of cases it would be a case of "my word vs your word"

I remember I dueled mystical a while ago in EU and we couldn't kill each other...
he said something that it's because I use a stalemate build... while I had more than enough dps to kill him ( around 60k) , I just couldn't get enough rends in because of his defensive style... while his eu dh clearly lacked top dps as he admitted lots of times.

That is just an example, but who is to blame there for stalemate? should I play skorn and try to one shot, or wotb? Would this be a less stalemate build? Or should the dh play more aggressive and not just wait until he has prep again before he engages? Hard to say.
DarkRaven 2013-05-11 23:17
if I start each game with max ehp, play 15 minutes per round and just switch 1 item at a time it may last more than one hour before somebody gets a kill... also if I change an item with 90 str 90 vit to one with 110 str 70 vit?

I'm doing a step towards a non-stalemate, but who is to judge if the steps are big enough?
Baharoth 2013-05-11 23:28
How about punishing both players if there are x (3?) rounds that end with a stalemate? Trying to restrict EHP might work for barbs but not for legacy nat dhs, they can still run like for ever and force stalemates.

Imo there is no way to prevent stalemates with certanty, but if the players dont get any benefit from stalling they lose the incentive to do it. Rule could be for example" If 3 rounds end with a stalemate the duell counts as a loss for both players." That way both would be inclined to prevent this from happening by using more offensive gear. However, to make that work it would be necessary to prevent them from seeing each others gear before the duell. Otherwise i guess it will just end up with an argument and a judge call in most cases.
VimeR 2013-05-12 08:37
with new rapid fire ban war cry is unnecessary, of course barb can play without, make this all res from items take relentless and play with 40-50k dps without fury for sprit and rend  ??? but this wanna making rules ?
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 09:33
yes vimer thx ...

as of my tests all "regular" pvp barbs maybe not vimer and devil will be melted by the new rapid fire rocket build + ballistic build because the bugged rockets do something like 500% weapon dps and no 145% + 50%.

They have auto aim and its really funny to see my 18 mio ehp tank going down in seconds.

@ Euro ... since i am the only pvp tank maybe i should give you the facts. darkraven hase some nice thoughts but doesnt know the data.

PVP-tank has some huge disadvantages - biggest problem is lag on runspeed and missing fury regen.
The huge advantage is that you have endless life and decent damage.
Diabloprogress is useless to see someones ehp. If you want to compare look at viciouscattle-rankings and you will see my 2 barbs are #1 and #7 in the world! So its not just one tank you make rules against its "the tank"

Problem in the game is that ehp same as dps is autocatalytical meens the more u stack the better it gets.
- if u reach > than 35 mio ehp you are nearly unkillable
- with all buffes i have 18 mio ehp, + ignore pain + relentless + -30% dmg cry i have about 45 mio ehp
- only class that can break this is wd (because of blizzards recource management system others can´t)
- with semi warcry ban i have 15,5 mio  if i use overpower i have still 18 but not 100% of the time but i can time it very well

I tested some with iria who has more dps than every eu-dh alive and if you really want to hurt my "tank-style" take away my -30% cry not warcry or anything else.
The moment you do so i will have to use +30% dps cry. Thats useless because i have only 40 k dps unbuffed. And i will swich automatically to a 60 k dps unbuffed build to benefit from the 30% dps buff. All that will lead to a much more "non-stalemate" fight.
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 10:23
is that ehp vs elites executioner? and what hit does it take into account for block? because i can assure u it is pretty far off that score.

i will do the math in a manual calculator with details and tell u what the actual numbers are
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 10:26
in my tankier gear i'm in 6th place, but if its without vs elites i have a lot more, as i have max 35% vs elites

also my ehp is based more on reductions which makes life reg on gear a lot better and also block better.
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 10:40
try this manual calculator with full details


executioner, with your tank gear you have 6.3 mil ehp vs elites with dodge but without block and red vs melee and ranged

i have 6.8mil ehp vs elites without block and red vs melee and ranged

u do have more vs ranged, i have more vs melee but i have a lot more block which with my overall better reductions makes it pretty valuable.

any calculator that uses block in the formula is not that great as the incoming hit can vary a lot, u have to use manual calculators, even doing the maths yourself to understand how all things in the ehp formula work, but i'm pretty sure i can survive longer vs dhs, but we can test if u want.

i will leave this spec on for now so that u can test in the ehp calc if u want, maybe i got some data wrong for  your char
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 11:06
the fact is that gear, about 6-7 pieces I swapped from my regular gear, is pretty cheap and a lot of barbs can achieve immortality with shit dps... sure if u can also get 60k dps congrats.

but if you sacrifice fury gain, movement speed and a lot of dps that is just building for stalemates and I really think this kind of direction should be sanctioned, although I can abuse it too.

for example if I play a game vs an equal or better opponent, I win round 1 and switch to full tank. what rule is there to prevent me from winning 5-4? I really think this should be discouraged.

some barbs are enjoying it now but they forget all other classes can do it vs them too when they feel they have a gear disadvantage.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 11:42
My statz leading to my tanksetup are:

250 000 life
14000 armor
42,2% dodge
15% blockchance
890 resist
-11% ranged
-14% elite
-12% melee

according to my calcs i have 17,9 mio ehp vs ranged and 18,3 mio ehp vs melee lvl 60 elite players

in comparison to that a normal pvp barb like vimer or devil with fury gain and max run reach a range from 7-8 mio ehp, some pvp-dummy progamers like keowen @ us servers reach 10,5 mio ehp by still having 95 k dps unbuffed.
I dont see any chance for demon hunters to win vs these guys.
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 12:03
y, I presume that is buffed with warcry dodge, nerves and tough as nails ( what I mentioned was fully unbuffed), I will run those buffed numbers for me too.

did u use block in the calc too? and if so what incoming hit?
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 12:05
nobody cares unbuffed stats you face a buffed tank in the arena!  If you play tank and max fury regen you dont understand the tank itself and the autocatalytical functions in the game!

as tankbuild is made vs ultra dpsler like sin that did always 14 mio hits to me i dont care on any block and use 1 mio dps inc as reference
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 12:15
y, with your stats buffed u have 13.623M vs elites with dodge, but without red to melee or ranged, and without block
with my stats buffed i have 13.677M vs elites with dodge, but without red to melee or ranged, and without block

basically u have slightly more vs ranged i have more vs melee but i have more block and more regen on gear.

ofc block is not that useful vs big hits and dot atks, but against dh, wiz, even against spirit barage is ok, especially with superior mitigation, when in relentless block can negate big shots almost 100%.

my point is that the gear parts i swapped are dirt cheap, with just a bit more effort i can get more... and anyone can reach similar levels, u do have more dps in your tank setup but its still pretty tankable by almost any opponent.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 12:21

@ your present gear you have 17,3 mio ehp vs ranged 20 mio ehp vs melee and incredible high 27000 dps ... you can run this setup in pvp if u double your dps somehow^^
Mr.Mag 2013-05-12 12:35
the league will start in the evening
Euronymous 2013-05-12 12:47

Can someone confirm this? If it's bugged the rune should be banned temporarily until they fix it.
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 12:55
@exe, 40k dps in pvp is just as useless as 27k, i'm only talking about pure stalemate builds.

in my regular gear i have 60-65k, we can check for 60k both and see what ehp we have if u want to compare gear.

i guess it will be pretty close, or slightly favorable to u, while i will have my ehp based more on mitigation, more regen on gear and more block

@euro, i didnt test yet vs dhs with this rune
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 13:08
Raven the funtanks are no problem in pvp leaque... really not  i had it last season there were 2 tank demon hunters i couldnt kill with no setup... we agreed on stopping the duell and canceled the challenge... it was just easy

the aim on tank barb is to reach the needed ehp not to be killed and use the needed dps 40-60-80 k unbuffed to get the killscore thats what analytical pvp is about

And @all TANK-HATERS out there plz dont get me wrong - tank is no real pvp-setup or way to play competitive pvp it is what it always was an countersetup against the 50 k life 800 k dps glass-cannon guys. Especially sorc, dh and monk. Dont even think about using tankgear vs barb or wd-class!

And raven you talk always about prices ... if you have a 30+ billion barb and sin and tomas onehit you all the time the fun-factor is decreasing every time u lose  0 to 5 vs em.
Yes tank-gear is still cheap but for example @ us server not half as cheap as here. And if you want to have 15 mio ehp and 70 k dps its maybe the most expensive build! At the moment i am at 67 k dps unbuffed and 13,4 mio ehp in this kind of build and cant afford the prices for any new upgrade.
predsr 2013-05-12 13:10
Tested the Ballistic passive dmg, and the dmg seems about right, i cant see anything abnormal there
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 13:18
exe, i understand u fully, that is the goal of any pvp player, having enough ehp to not die while still being able to kill.... the problem is the last part, and from what ive tested 40k dps is just so easily tankable by almost all players, i rarely go below 50k dps. but the problem is when we, or others, just go on extreme tank while losing the ability to kill... that includes not only dropping dps, but also dropping ms and fury gain.

a clear example is vs dh, a barb without unforgiving  and with less than 12% ms is not looking for a balanced fight, he just wants to tank all damage while never being able to get a kill unless dh is afk.

also a wd with 150-200k hp and good mitigation with something like 60k vs barb is not looking to play pvp but just troll because he knows that with regular setup he would be severely out-geared.

the same with a tank legacy dh that just runs, any class can do this.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 13:31

Hi pred, can you plz take new nat set + dps gear + rocket rune + ballistic and test the dmg @ normal barbs i have seen so many dying in the first 2 secs.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 13:38
@ Raven to be honest the tankgear is just a nice add to my calculations.... and worked incredible well vs sorc class and was designed to be able to stay alife after sin´s recources are out.

My goal was always and is still to use the tank setup and go 2-handed. There is a small window thats so difficult to reach where your ehp is enough to go 2-handed and at that moment you are just a killing-spree-mashine.

I have the best 2 hand weapon @ eu for this style but not the rest of the items so far. But if you have this you are world pvp-dummy-#1!  11 mio ehp - 2-handed barb having 90 k dps unbuffed using +30% dps rune will be the pvp ruler for long time and the needed items will be 10 billion each according to my thoughs.

I tried it last season and it worked so damn great vs all legacy users that they came up with the barb is op take em warcry away solution. As i had only 6 mio ehp it didnt worked any longer after the warcry nerf and generally vs new nat users. If i use 2 hand vs iria i am dead in 3 sec. If i reach 11 mio ehp in 2 hand i kill every dh no matter what thats a promise.
Forti 2013-05-12 16:20
Can anyone explain me, why wd have no restrictions and rulez? vs. monk "haunt or firebats" - this is like no rulez @ 1.0.7.
N0F3aR 2013-05-12 17:15
Here are my proposal about some balance:
  Barb vs DH - war cry - Rune Impunity and Rune Hardened Wrath not allowed. Others allowed. I will explain why. At last time DH improve their game play against barbs and they run/chase much better that before. Myself ( as barb) the fury and fury generation i have is not enough to catch and chase decent DH. For that i use SoJ with rend bonus. Oviously i go lower EHP for more dmg and mobility. No war cry impunity will force me to use rare ring,otherside i will have too low EHP. Some more fury generation or life/life regen would be good.
  Barb vs Wizard - no cc breaker means very very hard fight for barb against a decend Wizard. This patch Wizard got 2 very good buffs for PvP - RoF with more 65% dmg and much better teleport. Wizard can run and chase now much easier than before. So for barb is now harder to catch and to escape from Wizard. Teleport goes beyond on the walls (most of walls). Aslo the strong disable ability of Wizard could make barb to be stunned/frosted for like 5-6 + sec( and if ilusions are activated, that could last longer). No ignor pain in that case means death. I am on 171k life, 880 cold resist and 37% dodge chance, but that doesnt matter. Here is what i offer:
  1. WotB no Insanity rune - actually that is the rune that makes problems for the Wizards, since Barbs get double damage for the duration. Everything els is just a litle more stats and cc imunity for 15 sec. With the new teleport Wizard run to the other side of the map for short time. Or let say WotB no rune.
  2. If wotb is banned, wizard drop nova/stun/mirrors. Banning mirrors that stun/frost  may bring better balance. Or 1 of the disable skills.

Thx for the attention.
MoKKaL 2013-05-12 19:11
@ barb vs wizz:

i tested vs nofear - and it was pretty one sided for me (wizz)
i tested vs darkraven and imo it was balanced in that case ...

nevertheless my thoughts:
- ban wotb
- ban mirror images --> rune: mirror mimics + mocking demise

--> barb cant roflstomp any wizz out there
--> barb cant be stunned to death
--> wizz can still negate Rend with other Mirror Images Rune
Euronymous 2013-05-12 19:45
The thing is, most of the duels in D3 will be one-sided. Duels that go back and forth with unpredictable outcome are few and far between. No skill restrictions will ever change that.

Let's take your example

with current rules
easy win vs nofear
draw vs darkraven
hypothetically: loss vs top barbs (no offense to these 2 barbs)

If it's balanced around your duels vs nofear (e.g. no mocking demise on mirror mimics) it will just be a simple shift of powers to
draw vs nofear
loss vs darkraven
no chance vs top/tanky barbs

Is this better/more balanced? Who should judge that?
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-12 20:07
i agree on euros opinion in this case if they (develop team d3cl) want to balance something they rely on the tests of the lets say top 3-5 of each class meassured by the last seasons results

so difficult to make wd rules if you dont take blud and co in mind and same with devil and vimer for barbs

yes its not fair at all and its pay to win somehow but its not possible to balance average gear vs average gear
DarkRaven 2013-05-12 20:08
i think it has a lot to do with playstyle, barbs have to learn to adapt

i agree with euro that neither me or nofear are at vimer's level for example.

i do have more ehp than nofear and that helps, and i can go a lot higher on ehp.

vimer for ex has more dps, but 1 crit of mine does already more than 50% damage to mokkal, so if vimer has around 10-15% more damage on crit (with similar ehp to mine, from what  i've seen so far, although he has a lot of gearing options) he would need roughly the same number of crits, although he has more cc, which again is debatable because many of the hota shots are done at full fury after a stun for example, so the cc diference is not that big.

but a lot has to do with running around corners and breaking line of sight, barbs can no longer face tank wizzards, they have to play smart, if i just stay and get 2-3 stuns in a row i'm dead but if i run around corners, hota after charge and run before stun i sometimes can make it work.

i really want to see the result of vimer vs mokkal (who is so far the best wizard in d3cl, at least vs barbs). if vimer defeats him than the matchup is perfectly fine and it means other barbs are undergeared.

i dont think any bans are required now, but if mokkal defeats all barbs (including vimer) 5-0 than something could be tweaked afterwards.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-13 03:39
had some nice duels today vs dh - the combination of rapid fire, ballistics passive and the 100% stun every 7 seconds passive works so incedibly well vs barbs - plz test it with some guys but in my eyes its really way over the top dps

(testet with warcry no rune)
N0F3aR 2013-05-13 11:56
Btw, 1 question :
Is the bunker style of DH allowed? I hear some dh already use it on this season. So?
Forti 2013-05-13 12:35
No, it is not allowed.

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chucknorris#1885 2013-05-13 13:00
the stalemate rules that have worked best in my experience are;

after stale mate each player get chance to change gear in town. this change must result in both players increasing their dps by at least 10% as well as having over 100k dps minimum. If a second stale mate occurs players can change gear again and must add at least another 10% dps and are not allowed to use a shield.
Forti 2013-05-13 13:18
What exactly mean stalemate? What if some players don't have gear to up dps?

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KNHO 2013-05-13 14:35

It´s pretty much how you definate "Bunker Style".

1. Putting on ground 3 Healing-Turrets in a spot, and sit inside them with brooding+Full BT set+130 k hp, is "Bunker Style".

2. Moving around on the map with setting up Healing-Turrets in some diffrent spots, and sit inside them with brooding+Full BT set+130 k hp, [color=red]is what?[/color] How long can a player sit in a place surrounded by turrets on one spot before we can call it "Bunker"?
-Inferno- 2013-05-13 15:11
@Executioner and Darkraven ( our tank specialists :D)

I started a fun char on US some days ago and ran into this guy -->君千羽-3393
Pls check his profile and tell me what you think. I have yet to see a barb comparable to this....
Best regards,
riot 2013-05-13 15:28
That's the tankiest barb on US server that has decent dps. Crazy ehp and just enough dps to kill with wotb.
Euronymous 2013-05-13 15:39

It´s pretty much how you definate "Bunker Style".

1. Putting on ground 3 Healing-Turrets in a spot, and sit inside them with brooding+Full BT set+130 k hp, is "Bunker Style".

2. Moving around on the map with setting up Healing-Turrets in some diffrent spots, and sit inside them with brooding+Full BT set+130 k hp, [color=red]is what?[/color] How long can a player sit in a place surrounded by turrets on one spot before we can call it "Bunker"?

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet. That playstyle was already effective in 1.07 and now with 4%life/s, 60%life/45s, ~2k life/s and ~25%life/30s via pots combined with good mitigation and high dodge looks pretty OP on paper. Firebats will work but other than that I don't see many chars being able to kill such a DH.
If it proves to be OP then some skills should be banned (e.g. 2% turrets or 2% brooding but not both and turrets or traps but not both), that way you don't have to define "bunker style" anymore.

KNHO did you watch the vid I posted in this thread earlier? Reminds me a bit of D2 pvp.
KNHO 2013-05-13 15:52
Euronymous, it´s op in combination with the new [color=red]Rapid fire[/color]. Maybe we should think about that. I can´t accept that a full BT Tank Dh, sitting in healing turrets+brooding with mass hp and life/s, can 1 or 2-shot me even without Soj while i try to set 3-4 massive impale crits to force his preparation. Sure i can get the same BT Set, and sit in Turrets too...but trust me this "Kalashnikov-style, Western-shootout, Auto-aim"  Rapidfire gaming is a thing that kills the fun in a mirror.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-13 16:11

well that guy is in my friendlist and he got the best weapon in the world because the seller didnt answered my request :D and yes its the best dps/ehp build for pvp so far in my opinion - wutongshu#1668 and keowen#1552 have also nice potential gear
ximae 2013-05-13 19:16

well i actually have a bt set to troll pubs bunker style with my alt dh and most clases do have the means to burst that down. Mind my set is not awsome by anymeans just some 100k life 4.5k armour and 650 ar. but any bat wd or any high dps monk or dh could burst me down in a couple crits, even a 2h barb with hota. now a wiz has 0 chance vs that as he cant have that kind of one hit burst and cant stay there channeling vs rapidfire.

that would need to be addressed imho, like shield docs, its absurd the ammount of damage they can deal in that ubertanky setup.
Euronymous 2013-05-13 20:24
It's already addressed isn't it?

-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the passive skill “Brooding” is not allowed.

Bit surprised that you lost 5-0 vs. that WD. What kind of setup did he use?
ximae 2013-05-13 20:53
well honestly i suck vs wd its the only class i dont have build that might work against.

Basically he was using pets, hex and spirit barrage, actually didnt inspect him, geared pretty damn tanky with shield. I think i activated his spirit vessel once or twice in the whole duel but he could still easily 2-3 shot me with barrage even using the shield, against my 900 ar, 4k armour,  7 e reduce, 100-120k life (depending on setup) with 25% dodge... so anytime i was dealing damage i was just taking more.

he is actually doing pretty well as im seeing in the tables now.
VenX 2013-05-14 00:57

Hi pred, can you plz take new nat set + dps gear + rocket rune + ballistic and test the dmg @ normal barbs i have seen so many dying in the first 2 secs.

This seems to work as intended. Rapid fire should do in total 649 % weapon damage/s for me, and that is over 3 million dps / second in dps gear. Tested with NoFear and sure he died within a couple of seconds, but that seemd reasonable
Forti 2013-05-14 09:02
I ask again, why wd have no rulez vs. monk? (firebats or haunt is no rulez)

pls, show me monks how can beat top wd (no sin pls)
DarkRaven 2013-05-14 09:33
what happens if a player challenged quit the league, can someone delete the challenges or something? or they are automatically removed after a while... I have 2 of those.

also one of my opponents seems to not know where to submit the score :)

yeah, good wds are beastly but if top players from other classes can do it, like vimer, sin or predsr, I guess it's ok
Forti 2013-05-14 09:44
no it is not.. meyby they just less skilled than sin or vimer? Also I talk wd vs. monk only. Meyby top wd have less skill than sin or some? It is seems like you balanc monk vs. wd, not wd. vs monk :c  "haunt or firebats" is useless, wd can just stand, run around and cast spirit barrage, times to times cast spirit walk to get away from monk, and if I hit them enough to kill they got spirit vessel. ohh.. so now I have to kill them again (2sec from spirit vessel is enough to get away from me) and they can still cast "auto aim op dota" :)

Guys, seriously? I know only one monk how can kill wd - I think it is not fair against rest of players. Sin probably got higher skill then wd or I dont know wtf.

wd should have rulez: spirit walk or spirit vessel, but not both. That's all from me. (Im glad that rulez dev team are wd and barbs, right?)
Mr.Mag 2013-05-14 10:03
all active challanges will be finished even after one player quits the league (for 3 days)
Baharoth 2013-05-14 11:27
[quote]all active challanges will be finished even after one player quits the league (for 3 days)[/quote]

Does that mean we have to play the duells even though they leaved or will the one left in the league get a walk over after 3 days? I have 2 such cases as well thats why i am asking.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-14 11:39

Hi pred, can you plz take new nat set + dps gear + rocket rune + ballistic and test the dmg @ normal barbs i have seen so many dying in the first 2 secs.

This seems to work as intended. Rapid fire should do in total 649 % weapon damage/s for me, and that is over 3 million dps / second in dps gear. Tested with NoFear and sure he died within a couple of seconds, but that seemd reasonable

and this is working as intended? come on guys!

No impale demonhunter can do 9 mio damage if he roots the barb for 2 seconds but exactly thats happening if you get caught by the new rapid fire bullshit!

I tell you the truth - blizzard buffed the dh by giving new rapid fire thats a fact. And the rules dont take this into account because they are still 1.07 rules ...
The setup dh vs barb is totally broken now IF YOU DONT ALLOW WC - ALL RUNES IMMEDIATELY ;D.
It changed to a gearcheck somehow. There is only 1 possible setup again that you can play as a barb vs dh and its a Tank-Setup.

- minimum 10 mio ehp and 65 k or more dps unbuffed + overpower + wc (no rune) + -30% dps inc cry (ign pain optional)

some old styles that are broken now because u cant reach the stats above:

- runner barb using 24% run endless fury and 60-80 k dps, and charge (vimer, devil last season)
- pvp-dummy barbs using decent life and > 100k dps unbuffed (airbusor)
- 2-handed barb (executioner)
- agressive barb using endless fury and combined jump and charge (nofear)

you just force us all to play stalemate tank barb and alle the other 4 categories are out of the game!

Mr.Mag 2013-05-14 11:40
yes. if one player goes on holiday or quits the league, still has to finish current challenges. if wont do it, simply will lose by walkover after 3 days
Forti 2013-05-14 13:09
So, no one will explain me why WD have no restriction vs.  Monk and other classes?

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KNHO 2013-05-14 13:18

Because WD is one of the weakest classes in D3! The DH and Monks need to start using brain and think about some good moves, then i promise...you will win vs top WD´s eazy!  ;) ::)
Forti 2013-05-14 14:04

Because WD is one of the weakest classes in D3! The DH and Monks need to start using brain and think about some good moves, then i promise...you will win vs top WD´s eazy!  ;) ::)


So u tellink me.. that all monks and DH are just "idiots"? And "pro" players playd only wd because he is "weak"? Please explain this, tell me more. Giv me battle.tag some monks who can "easy" win with "top" wds. Sin is exception, he got amazing "ungetable" overpowered gear with imba super hyper dps (I mean damage in pvp) and very, very high reflex and skill. If there is more monks then please, show me them because possible I'm just wrong.

Also check this out http://www.d3cl.com/en/league/view/13/pvp-d3cl-1v1-league-season-2-eu.htm
Mnich#2633 is in top3 with 8:0 score - check it and notice he even didnt fight agains wd. And now he is on wacation mode ^^
Baharoth 2013-05-14 14:55
[quote]So u tellink me.. that all monks and DH are just "idiots"? And "pro" players playd only wd because he is "weak"? Please explain this, tell me more. Giv me battle.tag some monks who can "easy" win with "top" wds. Sin is exception, he got amazing "ungetable" overpowered gear with imba super hyper dps (I mean damage in pvp) and very, very high reflex and skill. If there is more monks then please, show me them because possible I'm just wrong.

I am pretty sure there was some sarcasm involved in his statement^^

However, if that Sin guy can beat them with the current rules i dont think that the rules have to be changed. The league is balanced around top players cuz its the only way it can be balanced. The rest of us just has to gear up. I mean Insane roflstomped me as well but he lost to vimer so its obvious that not the rules are the problem, i am. Look at it this way, if Sin can beat top wds with the current rules, if the rules are adjusted so that u or me can beat top wds what would Sin do to them? I know thats pay to win and i know that sucks but there is no other way.
DarkRaven 2013-05-14 15:06
forti, knho is being sarcastic.

the only games that can tell anything about balance will be the ones between top players.
vimer, insane, predsr, sin. for wizz mokkal is maybe the best so far this season but I don't think he is quite there at very top tier.

all other games will have gear discrepancies and a lot of 5-0, u can't draw many conclusions from the ranking, just that top players challenged more easy opponents when they still got 30 points from them :)

I wish there were more players so that the league would be divided in at least 3 echelons, dunno how many players would want to continue PvP after starting 0-8.

there should be gold, silver and bronze leagues with more games between similary geared opponents, even if each league had only 10-12 players.

dreams... :)
DarkRaven 2013-05-14 15:13
man I really wish vimer lost 0-5 to insane so that we would have some wd nerfs :P

well... I'm curious if other barbs in the league can take games from insane ( in the absence of euro or blud ), maybe katMPB has enough gear, we'll see.
Mr.Mag 2013-05-14 16:36
we thought about several number of leagues depending on pvp level but due to a small number of overall players, its impossible now :( i know 0-8 in 99% ends as unsubscribe but what can we do?
Baharoth 2013-05-14 17:20
How about a rule that allows players to refuse a duell if they are totally outgeared? Its a little vague but i think in most cases its kinda obvious and if it comes to an argument a judge could make the decision. If there is just like a 100 mio difference in gear its almost impossible to win except u can outplay the other completely.
Mr.Mag 2013-05-14 17:25
with the progress of a league, best players (with the best gear?) wont be able to play with te weaker ones because of points differences. you can play duel only if you have +-180 points. i think this problem is not as big as it seems. the problem is that if you dont have the best gear you are not able to win the whole league even if you're pvp super pro deluxe master in skill ;)
Baharoth 2013-05-14 17:56
well its not about winning the league... i mean if u enter the league with 100 mio gear and actually think u can win it ur just crazy. Thats like wanting to win a formula 1 race in a gocart ... Its about the situation now at the beginning of the league where the top players go for easy 5-0 wins against opponents that never had a chance to beat them. I dont realy mind it personaly, i need the experience anyway but seeing that others already quit after 1 day... a rule like that might be usefull. Later on in the league its fine but what about the beginning?
Forti 2013-05-14 18:29
Many players will refuse it only because they can lose,  not gear. There will be many refuse against barb and WD, many DH will receive it too. In my opinion

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VenX 2013-05-14 21:04

Hi pred, can you plz take new nat set + dps gear + rocket rune + ballistic and test the dmg @ normal barbs i have seen so many dying in the first 2 secs.

This seems to work as intended. Rapid fire should do in total 649 % weapon damage/s for me, and that is over 3 million dps / second in dps gear. Tested with NoFear and sure he died within a couple of seconds, but that seemd reasonable

and this is working as intended? come on guys!


I answered the question whatever or not is was bugged. It's a recent change that given demon hunters burst where 5 crit impales was realy rng, 25 % chance in my case when ss was fully active. To my knowledge this has not been tested in a enviroment where a running target and pilehuge, has been involved? If you not have notcied something since leauge begun  .But in the future, actions might or might not be required for rapid fire with rockets.
MoKKaL 2013-05-14 21:41
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” can use only one of the skills “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders”, “Firebats”, “Haunt” and “Spirit Barrage”
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Horrify”.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the passive skill “Blood Ritual”.

really? ... pets allowed? ... really? ^^
Euronymous 2013-05-14 22:24
Must have been a different MoKKaL on PTR then that told me pets are fine and easily killed :P
ximae 2013-05-15 00:20

yeah i feel ur pain!.... QQ

pets make useless any sort of longer ranged spells we have like magic missile or storm armour and staying in mid-close range too deal damage is just takin too much damage to have any sort of decent trade as they do way more dmg and tank better, It really feels hopeless.
Mr.Mag 2013-05-15 08:30
I agree. at the beginning of a league weaker player will lose for sure. we could give top x players from previous ladder +200 points in the next season on start and eliminate possibility to play with the weaker ones. what do you thinkg about it?
DarkRaven 2013-05-15 10:02
Maybe separate the top 16 or 20 players from the others. ( being able to challenge only within that group)

Not necessarily top from previous leagues but top players in general, it's usually pretty obvious looking at gear.

After each week the best 4 from the lower bracket will advance in upper bracket with a score of 1200, the same for the last players in upper going to lower.

If a new good player joins he will have the chance to advance in a week.

Just an idea to keep only one league but somehow separate and dynamic.

( I know, technically there are 2 leagues but they could be on same page and the exchange of players should make them pretty connected)
predsr 2013-05-15 11:14
I kinda agree with DarkRaven, having some sort of 'divisions' will make it a lot more enjoyable for lower geared players, especially new players who have just joined the league, which most of the time get raped and its more enjoyable for them to pvp in public games.  however a problem might be the balancing of rules for people with lower tier gear
Mr.Mag 2013-05-15 11:20
but if we create a league for top players only, some of them will always lose :) promoting and demoting system is some kind of solution but even if it takes 1 month for a season, it's still a waste of time for loosers in top league. but in overall it looks better than it is now. current league organization discourage new players but we need them. its too late to introduce it on preset season but maybe in the next? there's a one big problem. without many players it's pointless. 2 leagues with ~20 players sux.

in general i like the idea and its easy to launch in the future.
DarkRaven 2013-05-15 11:44
I played sc2 for 2 years, at diamond and master level, even if it's a very balanced game with good matchmaking and league system winning streaks and losing streaks happen a lot.

I actually uninstalled the game 2 times after 10 games losing streaks even though I had lot longer winning streaks and good win/loss ratio.

I really appreciate  newer players that can continue the league after losing so many games.

I don't see the point of allowing games with such gear discrepancies, It's not even fun for the guy that's winning ( only maybe for ranking ego )... personally I try to give advice and test some more after winning but I bet lots of players don't even bother doing this.

it's so easy to get discouraged after losing and that can be seen from the continuous drop in players from season to season.
DarkRaven 2013-05-15 12:14
Getting back players is also very hard because even with separate leagues is so hard to convince them.

From the already low number of d3 players, a lot of them gave up on PvP after first day of 1.07 ptr, others gave up when 1.07 came live, others when 1.08 came live and they could search easily for public PvP...

With a more and more reduced PvP player base they can't even introduce  real pvp ladder and/or arenas... and d3cl has an even more reduced player base and very soon it will become a platform just for the absolute top players... but even they will probably give up because a lot prefer to rofl stomp noobs.

Although I spent a lot on gear and others spent a lot more, one of the only ways for balanced PvP for everybody it will be fixed gear... Or rather fixed stats that anyone can achieve.

A rough example, barbs are allowed to have unbuffed Max 40k dps, 80k hp, 500ar, 6k arm, 7 red vs elites / mel / range 25% block, 15% dodge, 24 ms etc... U can achieve stats in many different ways but with enough testing balanced, and rather cheap to get stats can be found for every class.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-15 17:05
@ darkraven

its difficult to realise and in diablo2 it was tested and not really a sucess :(

blizzard has only 1 chance anyway and thats team-pvp

even 2 on 2 is much more fun than 1 on 1 so far and there is only a minimal chance for stalemates
ricebowl 2013-05-15 23:17

-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Dashing Strike” is not allowed.
-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.[/quote]

Forti 2013-05-16 10:11
I have just nice duel against wizz. He got storm armor what is, in my opinion, just op. IT does some dps (130 with some rune) but it is auto aim with large distance. If I wont kill wizz with first combo (he can teleport on walls + mirrors for dot breaker + second life) I will just die, because I dont have spirit to try again (15 spirit regen giv me 5 sec for each wave of light with second rune (the rune reduce cost to 40spirit is useless) - I cant kill him with one bell ;]).

I got 140k dps + soj with 1.1 ias what giv, as I think, nice dps, but not very high. 90k life with 1mln ehp and was able to die from 2 shoots. Ally helps here a bit, but he die from one shoot - then is my turn what giv 3-4 shoots sometimes. It is better the wd's dota.

When the wizzard changed storm armor for ice armor - fun was much better and fight were more "balanced" in my opinion. Yes, I still died alot. Cuz, I'm still low geared and possible low skilled (1-8 score in 2 seazon, 32-36 in first seazon, dunno what happend to me). All I know is that, fight vs. wizzard is much more fun and balanced without storm armor. Monk have banned 3 skills what, in my opinion, is joke.

Thx for reading my funny-low english.
predsr 2013-05-16 12:14
The way to combat storm armor is not to fight in the open, i suggest doing your combo then los right away.  This might be easier said than done, since im using a DH and smokescreen helps soak twice as many SA as you may be taking

I was dying in approx 2 successful SA hits also, but it also depends on your dodge
DarkRaven 2013-05-16 14:51
You are probably right executioner it may all lead to 2v2 PvP because balancing 1v1 is probably harder, and 2v2 should be a lot faster and brutal.

Like u mentioned before a lot of the recent changes, even before brawling, were done with PvP in mind even if they say they don't care about balance.

Even the 4% inspiring presence actually makes more sense for 2v2.

A barb is the most easy to cc and if 2 characters focus fire on him he can die in 1 stun, while his teammate probably will not be able to kill one. Also in official PvP arenas wotb may be on cd a lot more if the rounds start immediately and are shorter, not like in d3cl.

Ofc there will be a lot of balance issues in 2v2 as well, for ex how about 2 monks with blue bells and serenity, one shot opposite team on sight with 4+ aoe bells?
Forti 2013-05-16 17:09
I left this league. Soo many players who try get w/o. They challenged me and crying why I cant when they want to.

If u want, put w/o on all my challeng (so lame...) I cant play all weekend (job since 7-19 CET in Saturday and Sunday) and tomottow I got orthopedic doctor so one player can not understand it.
ximae 2013-05-16 17:25
forti, just leave the comments about availability in the challenges chat so judges can see its not dodging but just purely bad timeschedule compatibility... dont think they will give a walkover for that.
Forti 2013-05-16 17:38
I know it. But it is really disappointment when "high geared, level" and as I think "non-newbie" player dont understand it and always spam you... all the time ;] You have to play when they want or "why you join league if u can not play?" -,-

ehh, nevermind :P let's make it fun!
DarkRaven 2013-05-16 21:12
wtf is going on with rapid fire + balistics??? :P

170k dps dhs are hurting me with those skills more than 400k ones with impales
dhs can tank up and survive spear and shields rend while having the ability to melt like butter any ehp barb

dunno if its bugged, i will do the maths on the damage it should do but it seems really retarded, also in corelation with "bunker" style allowed it seems a bit op, especially with all runes on wc banned

imo the rune is bugged as hell, i wanna test against higher dps dhs, please contact me :)
predsr 2013-05-16 21:51
The dmg is normal, the ballistic passive is 50% dmg, not crit dmg.  rapid fire does approx 430%~ per tick, imaple does approx 260% per hit
DarkRaven 2013-05-16 22:01
if this is normal than it seems a bit op, like the new bats.

if the skill continues to be allowed, and bunker style, banning runes on wc seems really funny :)

did u test predsr against high end barbs with legacy and non legacy gear, how did it went?
predsr 2013-05-16 22:34
A little, cant seem to get my hands on a decent non legacy set, with new set I only added on 160 extra dex, this added approx 2k~ per crit rocket, this is vs vimer and executioner

From what I gathered, no warcry une was banned because a DH's only high DPS spell was impale, without ban its VERY hard to kill the higher EHP barbs with impale

However with the patch, rapid fire got buffed, like x2 dmg, and its much easier to burst a barb down instead of impale

Ive not had any 'long' tests, played vs vimer using rapid fire spec and i managed to kill him twice out for 15 fights or so, but bearing in mind that im just getting used to the spec, it needs to be played in a certain smart way or barb will kinda still own you :)

What i also agree (from executioner) that it FORCES barbs to play a tanky build, i think exec calced approx 10m ehp to survive the rapidfires?

A suggestion might be to allow any rune vs rapid fire, but no rune vs imaple?, however, i still feel rapidfire will be the new flavour of the month regardless

tldr: if a DH uses rapidfire spec, it forces barb to play a high EHP spec, however the Dh needs to plays this spec well, he cant just simply stand still and unload unless hes facing a low ehp barb
DarkRaven 2013-05-16 22:44
well, I only played against 2 relatively average geared, they used tanky spec 90-100k hp with bunker style, so i actually had to go for wotb with skorn and 1000dex... but if they had more dps and more skill avoiding rends in wotb, they would have destroyed me easily.

I couldn't tank with a pretty tanky spec, and those guys had below 200k  unbuffed I think.
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-16 22:58
yes @ predsr since there are some skilled dh like lilith and knho that refuse to use rf the impale setup should be buffed as it was tested and mentioned by the ptr rules (warcry no rune)

if dh use rf the barb needs wc +15% dodge ! totally agree @ predsr!

i really test a lot and even with 13 mio ehp anf 60 k dps setup i have so damn problems to survive even in public games
to name just 2 examples the dh with names chen and error really do extreme dps if they use the right rf build.

and the rf stack alot in dps if dh is using new nat set

@ darkraven if the dh is not playing dps and only stands @ 1 turret > use ~9 mio ehp some decent dps and kill him by attacking every 10 sec if overpower is rdy and use wotb and dps-charge will work vs 95% the dh that really could abuse it play dps anyway
If the dh usses 3 turrets and spikes and everything to tank blame him bunker style abuse :D
link1313 2013-05-17 05:41
spirit walk/hex/fear/vessel force barbs to use wotb = no fun  >:(

how can you allow all 4.
DarkRaven 2013-05-17 07:19
yeah, the rf with missiles gives dh a lot more burst than impale.

At least modify the rules to allow all runes on wc, dodge rune seems like a must vs those missiles.

didn't saw that bunker mode is back on ban list...if dhs use turrets and circle them to heal is this bunker mode? I will sure abuse the "print screen" button if I see one of them again do that coupled with rapid fire :)

I just saw that venxosiz defeated katmpb 5-0. I don't know if the dh is top gear or not but I do know that katmpb is one of the best geared barbs in eu, seems a bit weird.
KNHO 2013-05-17 08:47
Darky, average Dh´s got now good chances vs good barbs if they do it the right way.
Ballistics, Rapidfire, Impale(bleed), Mark of death (If you play without hate regenerator) + Thrill of the hunt. I wait till you charge, leap, right after that i shoot you into ignore pain within the next 2 sec, if you think to run to not get hitet by Rf you´ll be finished by Impales.

The most Dh´s didn´t figure it out till now, but it could be a pain in the ass for barbs versus good dh´s.

What about WD vs DH dear R.Developers? There is still no real chance for DH´s to compete vs good geared, clever WD´s coz there isn´t much brain needed as WD  :) ;) :D
ximae 2013-05-17 12:02

ah yeah i was forgetting u guys werent allowed to use runes on warcry coz i was a bit wtf coz i remember testing with u in ptr, just before i did my skorn dmg test, my dh with rf and i was doing crap dmg (with like 230k dps with soj) yeah i was using webshot and cull of the weak not ballistics but it must have been the dodge rune which is soo good vs channels. Also ip was still at 4% then though.
KNHO 2013-05-17 13:51
To set a point in the RF discussion, there was several times told "Making rules depending on top players".
If there will be 2-3 DH´s who will be able to destroy Vimer with RF and Balistics, we can talk about allow WC and more vs Rf users  8)
DarkRaven 2013-05-17 14:05
the problem is that i dont think there are top dhs with non-legacy gear in d3cl now. (when i say top i mean at least 350-400k unbuffed with close to 1 mil ehp, although there are some with much more than that)

dunno what gear venxosiz has, he has some parts missing now, maybe he is one of the top.

@ximae, yeah, rapid fire without the rockets and balistics didnt seem to do much, and indeed the ptr regen of barbs was bugged, but from what i saw its pretty imba damage.

i agree that there are weak points, like having to stay still to channel, and dhs are vulnerable to wotb, also if they use a more static build barbs have the movement speed advantage (if they arent stunned) and can reset the game until they have ignore pain again.

N0F3aR 2013-05-17 23:44
Just played with Med and Lilth and tested their new Rapid fire build. It seems they deal high dmg and i think the rune Impunity of War Cry is nesecary against decent dh in future. Also the others dh i've met use the same build and its hitting a lot. So what you say about allowing Impunity again, since dh has such big dmg output (nearly 800% weap dmg on rockets). Also its seems that rapid fire requires no much hatred, so dh has like np with the resours using this skill.
KNHO 2013-05-18 00:02
You guys are funny, last season most Dh´s have been buttwiped by Barbs.
Now DH got a bit stronger, and you begin to think about nurfing them right from the start.
Think more about WD´s. They´ve shit on all in season 1, and they go on shitting on all in season 2.
Once again i quote you guys "Make rules depended on best players".
I´m ok with buffing Barb vs DH if Vimer looses 2-3 fights vs average RF DH´s :) If he doesn´t, the comment "L2p, Use your brain" would be right in place, wouldn´t it?
predsr 2013-05-18 01:39

Where did you get the 800% math from?

Rapidfire is only np hatred if its constant channelling, if you can get a Dh to stop firing in between, they will be using 20 hatred per start/stop
N0F3aR 2013-05-18 01:59
1. I am not saying nurf DH, i say allow Impunity (War cry rune)
2. Predsr, 1 dh told me that about 800% weap dmg. Almost all dh say skill is bugged/op. But 800% or less, this skills does really a lot of dmg, also with the passive that immobilize the target the opposite hero of DH is disabled like always(every 7 sec cd), since the rockets (rune of that rapid fire) always autoaim the targed even beyond walls. Med toke me 150-160 k life like np in 2 sec when i go out of IP. And that is with 1040 Phys resist, 11100 armor, 28 % elite dmg reduction, 11% range reduction. I had to take off unforgiving and take both relentless + nerves of steel to be able to survive. An that cost me high mobility on the map. Or using WotB with very good timing.
! I am not saying "Nurfs DH". Just i think Barbs need full power of protection against that "rapid fire" build.
And KHNO is right,
WD is still mega imba. His survive ability is nearly as barb, but the dmg output is great. Actually not bats are the biggest problem especially Barb vs WD, but the life regen and disable that decent wd has.
DarkRaven 2013-05-18 07:46
I think that dhs have to give up a lot of mobility for rf, they cant really kite a lot, like with impales, they get a lot more rends.

I played vs venxosiz yesterday and he actually streamed it, here is the vid

http://www.twitch.tv/venxosiz/b/404687873 - the duel starts at about 1.00.00, it was 5-1 but we tested some more afterwards.

i first started with wotb to abuse the somehow more imobile rf build, it did ok but he actually moves a lot, which is good. after round 2 or 3 i switched to marauder rage because i noticed that even my non-wotb crits were decent.

after the duel i tried skorn, but I was too squishy, it did work with 1000 dex on gear but pretty low dps for skorn, it could be ok with a skorn with 300+ dex but only vs tanky dhs.

than i tried same build as in the duel but with treatening shout instead of marauder and it actually did ok too, the identical build that i use vs legacy dhs, both gear and skills, having enough fury at all times is nice.

at the very end i tried my tankiest spec vs his most dps, it took him 18 sec to kill me which is very good, a lot of skorn barbs with insanity hota rend couldnt kill me in that spec standing still.

i agree i could have used also overpower for more defense to at least get to 2nd ignore pain, but still the dps was huge.
that final test was with dodge rune on impunity, 44.7 dodge buffed, 950 AR, 12k arm, 32 block, -35 vs elites etc, no dps :)

I havent yet tested vs legacy and i dont think rf advantages them, because they rely on kiting and not getting rended, they cant really tank too many rends.

it may be ok in the current league as i dont see many top dhs with non legacy gear, but really good ones with 350k dps unbuffed and decent ehp should destroy any barb
N0F3aR 2013-05-18 12:10
Venxosiz is good dh, in my duel against him he surprized me with his rapid fire build and leaded almost all the time. Finnaly i won 5-3, in the moment i find correct build i turned the game in my favor. But Med and Lilth i think have more pvp potential so far ( no offense, venxosiz,they are at least experienced players). The fights with them were harder and closer. Also Lilth played with legacy nata and wasnt easy as you think.
DarkRaven 2013-05-18 13:16
yeah, I agree that there are better dhs out there, dunno how legacy dhs use rf, I didn't yet test, I don't think they are easy but rf style doesn't seem to suit their kiting style.

indeed predsr and med seem to be really good legacy dhs gear wise and they should do very well vs barbs in d3cl
Euronymous 2013-05-18 14:33
Checked the latest results and found these two quite interesting

predsr#2228 vs  brx#2821 2013-05-18  3:5 
brx#2821 vs  Emmett#2681 2013-05-16  1:5 

I obviously don't know what happened in these duels, but, assuming all players played at their normal level, it looks like a nice example of how different gear/build choices affect the outcome of a match.
DHs have so many options now that most WDs don't use Firebats, all these CC/stun melee builds become very effective. Tank builds with 4% regen could be effective. It's up to you to gear in a way that you don't get randomly 1-shot by Spirit Barrage.
It's far from proven that good new nats/bt DHs don't have a chance under current rules. I don't blame you if you are not willing to spend another 10B+ on a new nat set, but you can't really complain if you are using an outdated set from almost a year ago as a "one for all".
Unfortunately Emmett loses to a lot of non-WDs, so we might not see Insane vs. him anytime soon.

N0F3aR 2013-05-18 20:05
And what you say about Barb vs WD?  I mean Vimer could be not counted since i think he outgears any1 on this season( my opinion - his pieces are very very rare on ah, gj).
DarkRaven 2013-05-18 21:12
lol insane only lost 1 round (to mokkal) in all the rounds except the game lost to vimer.

they are on a different gear level than the others.

those pieces u don't find on ah nofear, u have to look on various sites like Diabloprogress and talk to seller, when u have the billions for them :), at that level you pay billions for 20-30 vit, it may seem not that important but it adds up in the end.
DarkRaven 2013-05-18 21:35
there is also a lack of communication between players, regarding builds, like in the example Euro gave.

players with less gear can perform better than others with more expensive gear, using optimal builds, sometimes 1 skill can change a game from a 0-5 to 5-0.

I also see players like katmb, his spear alone is worth more than the gear of the top 10 combined ( except vimer and insane) yet he loses vs guys that me and nofear 5-0, and I bet there are others that just don't know the proper builds... and in the known builds I'm sure there is still room for improvement.

if insane shared some strats that worked against him, if any, maybe other players would have a shot too.
VenX 2013-05-19 04:03

You missunderstood me when I mentioned dps from rapid fire, the rockets them self don't do that much damage. formula for rapid fire should be BASE: 438 * ATTACKSPEED + ROCKETS: 145 * BALLISTIC(1.5) * 2 Rockets, in my pvp setup 1158 % Weapon Damage/s. The rockets them self hits for 435 and that is when you channeled for atleast 1 sec.
MoKKaL 2013-05-19 10:12
Insane lost 1 round against me, because he used a shield in the first game - the match was VERY close.
After that - he used a dmg off-hand and the dmg was too "insane" - like in most WD MU's.

thats the reason i won 1 round - just to mention it :)
DarkRaven 2013-05-19 10:26
Is he at least at the same level with blud and euronymous? because i think that euro was even better... and his EF helped a lot.

vimer managed to have a balanced game with pretty close to absolute best gear for barb, I checked a lot of profiles of good pvp barbarians from around the world and vimer has pretty much the closest to optimal gear.
N0F3aR 2013-05-19 11:14
Insane has decent gear, but i am not sure he is on the level that were( are) Blud and Euro (regarding items). I think Vimer outgear him (no offense).
Dark Raven, you are right about Diabloprogress and the items you find there, but Vimer's stuff is very rare even there. I checked about barb pvp items, but there we few, and almost all of them werent for sale.
MoKKaL 2013-05-19 11:34
tbh ... i dont notice any difference when im dead so fast :D
Euronymous 2013-05-19 14:08
His gear is about 5-10b while Blud and me were in the 50-100b price range. Judging from the inspect in venxosiz twitch video I'd say he has about the same damage (~300k vs. elite +barrage bonus) but probably ~25% less EHP and less utility (no fear proc, no hp bonus on pots).

So, while the price difference is huge it's not necessarily a huge difference ingame. Like mokkal said, if you die in a few seconds, possibly in the duration of a spirit walk, it doesn't really matter how much EHP the WD has.
Same goes for DHs and Monks, in my opinion only Barb and Wiz heavily rely on gear since they don't have temporal invulnerability.

That being said, you really should be able to kill this WD (except for Wiz). I think right now a lot of you suffer from a lack of testing. One reason being that it's hard to test builds and tactics if there are almost no players to test with left. The other being that some of you make the rules your scapegoat for losing instead of trying to improve your game.

For Wiz instead of the 1 out of 4 rule, a 0 out of 3 (barrage, leaping spiders, firebats) would probably be better.
DarkRaven 2013-05-19 23:15
i have a question about stalemates

in the event of a stalemate are both players required to up dps or not?

i just played vs a very tanky tempest rush monk, he didnt change any gear in the game, although i easily tanked him in first rounds. without tempest it was 1-0 for me, than we both died 2-1, after that he used TR without changing any gear but i had to add a lot of dps and drop ehp. he kept insisting he cant up the dps although he had 80k hp with bt set and 140k dps. I went from my normal 60k dps up to 85-90k, so basically 50% more dps and a big ehp drop, also using more fury generating skills to catch his ever running tempest rush. (this may seem like low dps but it's actually pretty normal dps of barbs vs monks)


1. were we both supposed to up dps? he basically kept his ehp while adding the ever running tempest rush
2. if i chose to just stalemate after 1-0 or 2-1 would i have won the match or it would have to be canceled? if i just refuse to up dps on gear, like he did

it's not a rant, although tanky tempest rush monks are the most stalemate build in the game, but a question to know how i will play against this kind of spec in the future, because my intention now is to just go with max ehp and refuse to change any gear whenever i face tempest rush with tank gear.
N0F3aR 2013-05-20 01:48
I think gonna be good some promotion about the league in sites. 41 players is like nothing compared to 300+ 1st season.
DarkRaven 2013-05-20 08:38
I fought again vs insane, he had 100k hp and still enough dps to kill me in my tankiest spec

i tried with normal build, and i got him once in wotb to about 15% hp but it was clearly no chance for me, it probably means I'm outgeared, like almost all players here, except vimer who is probably in the 50-100B gear range.

seems that the most important skills for barb vs good wd are:
1. how to chase and stun the wd when he runs around a rock while u have wotb
2. how to run for 1.45minutes around the map without getting hit too much by the 1000-yards-over-the-wall skills.

I will share how i do it, maybe better barbs or wds can tell me how to do it better.

basically i use superstition for full fury when hit by haunt. I try to pop wotb right at the beginning of a big haunt, while still having warcry available for more fury... ideally i would want to pop it right after he uses a spirit walk, but it's hard.
also i use charge stun and i have to have it available when i pop wotb.

after i pop wotb, haunt still almost fills my fury, and i also have wc for more fury, first i charge and try to stun because charge has 10 sec cd, so i can get 2 charges in the 15 seconds of insanity. if i can hit both stuns while he doesnt yet have spirit walk maybe i can do something, but the chances are very slim, especially when they run around tight corners, very hard to catch with charge.

bash clobber may be a good idea for when in wotb but you have to do some damage even before wotb, and charge has a bit of cc protection vs hex.

zombie dogs are a big thing, even if they don't look like it, because if barbs wanna do some damage outside of wotb they have to dance around the hex shaman, zombie dogs make this very hard and u risk getting 2-3 stuns in a row if the dogs surround u.

popping wotb while in relentless is another way to do it imo, because of lower cost u save more fury so the hotas have more cc, but it's very risky vs high dps and hard to do right.

probably the most chances are to go for higher dps, pop wotb at the first haunt and pray u get 2 stuns, because after wotb u are dead :)

DarkRaven 2013-05-20 08:42
with that being said, I have to retire from the league, after the 1.5 hours duel vs psykes from yesterday night i got in trouble with my wife :P.

it was kinda fun, although not quite what i expected, 90% of duels were me outgearing others, 2-3 duels where balanced gear wise but i still ended winning 5-0, 5-1 which i don't think is fun for the others, the duels vs insane were complete roflstomp, the actual duels that i lost in a somehow balanced way were vs tempest rush monks when i got bored of playing safe after chasing 20 minutes around the map, not quite my idea of fun :P

there are some here that i didnt get to play but i bet they are very balanced opponents, i will do it in "friendly" games :)
if anyone feels like testing some games vs barb please hit me up in the game :)

cya all, i may still keep spamming the forums from work when i get some free time :)
Euronymous 2013-05-20 15:27
How many crit HotAs did you need to kill him?
DarkRaven 2013-05-20 16:15
I didn't exactly watch the numbers but I would say 3 crit hotas in insanity.

With the dps I had, one crit hota in insanity does max 850-900k, considering his hp plus defensive skills and my weapon range, I think 3 lucky crits should have done it.

But, if I use wotb at the beginning of a haunt, maybe I can still have 80 fury left plus 20 from wc, from 100 fury I have to use at least 2 sprints, so I can maybe get 4 hotas total... if he doesn't run around corners and doesn't spirit walk.

Doing it in relentless has nice advantages but a barb not getting hit gets out of relentless fast with his regen.

Hota soj would allow more hotas with reduced cost and more fury.

I would venture to say that vimer only needed 2 crit hotas in insanity but it also depends on what ehp insane used. In the first match vs me I think he had slightly lower hp but more dps.
Euronymous 2013-05-20 19:29
I don't think you need charge if he isn't using walls. It's a mistake in my opinion to not use walls. If you think chasing a WD around corners is tough, wait til you face the wall :)

If you really need the stun, ground stomp should be easier and safer to apply. Overall I think threatening shout is best to survive the 1m45s. It's range is higher than the WDs CC skills, low risk of getting caught. And unless the WD wastes his spirit walk to break it he won't be able to get many hits. He also should not be able to kite you during WotB with shout up.

Also Rend is worth a try. Zombie dogs die easily to it. It's range is also higher than the WDs CC so it's rather save to get in a rend here and there. If your crit hotas hit for so much your non-wotb crit rends should bother him quite a bit. 100k HP with no regen on gear is not enough to just eat rends.

WotB might not be necessary if he isn't using EF. Barbs did pretty good in "no hex, no wotb" vs. non EF WDs. Hota+Rend or two instead of one of the fury generating CC skills has worked if you know how to avoid hex.

Lastly, I don't think you are outgeared by that much. Compared to Vimer you have like ~10% less EHP and ~20% less DPS? A significant amount of it due to lower crit chance. Since that's just average DPS your Barb should perform similar in at least some occasions. I wouldn't expect that to be the difference between 5-4 and getting roflstomped 0-10.
Balanced or not at similar gearlevels, it obviously takes more skill and experience to kill a WD as a Barb (/any class) than vice versa.
DarkRaven 2013-05-20 20:48
with the gear he has now on diabloprogress, vimer has about 15% more damage with crits, and a bit more crit chance, ehp wise it's maybe something close to 5-7% more, because i have 7% more vs elites ( ~200-240 vit equivalent) than he has which is not taken into account on diabloprogress, but the ehp is constructed differently, i like at least 700 dex he uses more "raw" ehp., which is better in match-ups where DoT skills are used, like vs wd too.

I will try all u mentioned and it sounds pretty good to me, that is the kind of communication of builds that players have to share :)

i got used to furious charge because i usually dont use wotb vs wds and charge gives a bit of protection from hex, if u charge, hota and run u can escape the hex shaman even by being close to it, and yes it helps vs wall but not many wds use it.

ground stomp also seems ok, but usually wd has spirit walk available and he will cast it as soon as i pop wotb, even more if i use stomp... and the cd is 12 seconds as oposed to 10 for charge, but at least it's sure stun, that might work pretty well.

the same for threatening shout, if he has spirit walk he will use it when he sees wotb, i have to pay atention and pop it after a finished spirit walk, but indeed this will help also for tanking in the rest of the time.

i will try it if i see insane again, or maybe u can suggest other similarly geared wds, the rest vs whom i played charge and even without wotb seemed to be enough.
Baharoth 2013-05-20 22:24
[quote]seems that the most important skills for barb vs good wd are:
1. how to chase and stun the wd when he runs around a rock while u have wotb
2. how to run for 1.45minutes around the map without getting hit too much by the 1000-yards-over-the-wall skills.

Do u rly run around for 1.45 if u couldnt kill him with berserker? If i fail to kill him with my first wotb i tend to go in without it to try and deal some dmg usually dying in the process... just kiting for such a long time...  dont think i wanna do that :(
I wouldnt even use wotb it i had a choice but with all the cc skills wd has available its pretty much a must have -.-

DarkRaven 2013-05-21 08:40
depends on how much i can tank, vs 99% of wds i can still go at them even without wotb if they can't kill me in a few stuns, i can risk getting hexed, but vs insane for example if i get 2 hexes in a row i have to run and try to regen because a 3rd hex would probably kill me, which is also hard vs skilled wds that know how to control the center.

it's not really "kiting" for a long time is just running like a mad man and trying to hide until i regen some hp :P i heard mannercookie too referring to running as "kiting". Kiting is when u run a bit then hit the opponent without getting hit by him, taking advantage of faster movement speed and better attack range, what mannercookie does running from dhs or wds when he is about to die is just run-for-your-life-and-hope-you-live-until-next-ignore pain or pot :)
DarkRaven 2013-05-21 10:11
Euronymous is mostly right saying that skills and experience can make a big difference and most players ( myself included ) don't have enough experience.

For example, I got a walkover vs rudzian but he insisted to play in order to see the possible outcome. In his PvP gear he did no damage and died in 2 skorn shots, in his dps gear he did some damage and died in 2 spear shots... he was kinda bm saying that without wotb I would have no chance etc...

BUT, it was mostly because of what he did during my wotb.
  Insane just circles a rock without hitting me for 15 sec, and with my usual build I couldn't get more than 3 hotas of which max 2 were crits.
  Rudzian ran pretty much in a straight line.. he even tried to kite... with haunt. Basically he gave me full fury again and made it easy for me to catch and 2 shot him with increased crit chance hota from full fury. He doesn't have enough dps, but if insane did that it would have been a much different result.

As Euro said, the problem is lack of top players to test with... if vs all wds I know charge worked I thought that this is the way, no need to test more :)

Another example is tank dh using rf and camp mode vs barbs... it may work in public games but u will not be able to kill a decent barb, barbs can just go skorn wotb, run, ip if necessary and run out, u can't prevent them from regen if they fail with first wotb and eventually u will die...

I bet in all match-ups there are small things or unused skills that can probably turn the result upside down, too bad the PvP scene is small, almost nobody streams and few people communicate builds.
predsr 2013-05-21 16:06
its always amusing watching what rudzian is gonna type next lol :) im glad the bm guy is getting a beatdown :)
VenX 2013-05-25 15:41
Today I challanged p0is0nchita and if was fun and diffrent from how rest of the barbs play. He went for skorn and high damage, enought to one shot me almost every time with charge. It was a close game that ended 4:5 for him.  I've wanted to test for a while, duels where barbarians is not allowed to wield shield (vs DH atleast) but responses I get is that is not viable to play skorn vs dh. I like to know is this been fairly tested since 1.0.7 ptr and against both legacy and non legacy and even blackthorne dh.  I'd like alot of dh and barb response on this, but I will explain why p0is0nchita hade success without shield in my opinion

  If I where succesful kiting his wotb he would cut down the paths of the map that gave him the most overview and tryed to get a good line of sight on me when he did not have major cds avaible, turning from defensive to offensive. This lead to me not be able to pre smoke screen as succesful as I do against other barbs. I won when he did not have a position advantage and I where able to repeat 2-3 burst sequenze consecutive. This kind of battle was far more enteraining, it was quick fights with the best map controller victorious.
  Why I belive this can be balanced, simple. Resource. If the barb is offensive I need to predict when he charges and pre smoke screen, by failing is equal to death if not lucky. This will rise skillcap of both barb and dh. The DH can smoke screen every furious charge, but will then not be able to soak a rend or chase to score a kill. I noticed I only could kill him, if following statements where true.

1: Thrill of the hunt of cooldown
2: Furious Charge was not ready
3: Ignore pain, (да  venx..facepalm)

  This is just a suggestion to changes, but they should not be implemented this season. I knowI will upset your barbs now, but I noticed you all seem be outrageus when someone is able to kill you standing still in your tankiest gear. For me it's seems you say it's either  op or bugged because you where not immortal, witch you shouldn't be.
If this rule should be implemented there probably will need some tweaks, but I belive this is the road to go, and this will prevent stalemates aswell. 
IMP-Executioner 2013-05-25 16:54
2 hand only works if the dh has low budged gear

if he try this vs "real" dh he is oneshot

if u want to fight the only barb really using 2 hand on high lvl try me

i will go on playing this style if i get my warcry back vs the rapid fire rocket abuse
2 hand worked that fine vs dh that the barb was nerfed because the dh had no chance against it
so the barb got 15% hp nerf that isnt any longer needed since the dh got a dunno 90% ? dps buff with rapid fire

now u need 10 mio ehp not to be oneshot by dh (high gear lvl dh) in 2 hand u never reach more than 8 mio ehp with the warcry nerf so the setup is not viable any more and all barbs are forced to use tank

if u get caught by wotb u made mistakes - no barb is using wotb vs dh because it doesnt work at all vs top 10 dh
Forti 2013-05-25 17:40
One question. Top monks using massive ehp or massive damage build?

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IMP-Executioner 2013-05-25 17:58
mass dps
DarkRaven 2013-05-25 18:10
u had a nice fun duel but at the very top I don't think it can be done, a top dps dh would just kill skorn barbs in one stun.

even in my tankiest setup, high dps dhs melt me, the only class that can do that faster are wds using bats ( which are banned here )

rapid fire already gave dhs a very good burst, further nerfing barbs is a bit absurd, when already many dhs agree that even warcry runes nerf is a bit outdated now.
DarkRaven 2013-05-25 21:32
the problem is, for whom do you balance here? do you balance for the existing d3cl players or for the potential best players in every class?

for example, if insane wasn't in the league the barb vs wd matchup would seem barb favored. the problem is that there aren't any top dhs here with enough dps to destroy any ehp barb, but they exist.

I tested vs Chen, who has a nice dh, probably not at the very top but pretty good overall, even with all skills allowed it was a balanced game, I only killed him in wotb but if he moved more he would have made it very easy for him.

I also saw good dhs in public games, that with correct skills and movement on the map would do very well vs barbs.

did u try with stun caltrops, or other stuns? because if u can have thrill and another stun in a row it can be very brutal.
VenX 2013-05-26 02:43
Yes I tryed caltrops out without succes, can't score a kill without marked for death. I tested alot so tryed out shit like not using smoke screen and not vault and try to relay on evaise fire vault. The balance question is a tought choice, but in consideration with the numbers I got crunshed that dh need 400k unbuffed dps, and there only exist 135 of those in europe, by most is not able to stand a single crit rend. I can find out how many is pvp material if you like. Balance against our current players for me sounds most logical, thought most is around 300k dps I belive? But there will exist gear diffrence in the leauge aswell, and crunch numbers in a spreadsheet before each game to set diffrent rules does not seem that viable. Also I am not out to switch the power between dh and barb, if dh > barb with suggested changes, something new needs to come up with.
Forti 2013-05-26 06:42
Why non monks speak here? About vs.  Wizz DH and WD?

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VenX 2013-05-26 19:12

I don't feel I got enought experience vs monk (as dh) to comment on classbalance more then I feel dh as an advantage. I would like to hear suggestions from you and I am willing to test stuff out.
Forti 2013-05-26 19:20
So, DH got dodge like monks. They are very mobility and got higher damage than monks. Yes, monk got bell and sss. But let's be honest. I need higher than my 140k dps (1.16 ias)  to kill med geared one shot and need high ehp to stand with currently rapid fire. This duel seems like forgotten by deva Rulez because there are only few monks. I think DH is now just so powerful with hp regen,  pure ehp DH are just impossible to kill.  Or maybe I am at the same level as my English is.

Sorry for spelling hehe.

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Mr.Mag 2013-05-28 10:25
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7527743437 plz bump this thread sometime
VenX 2013-05-30 17:16
Forgot to post this, but for a while ago I did have some intense testing(DH) vs wizard and we both agreed rapidfire + any stun, any % healing ability, and chemical burn should be banned. Rapid fire all along needs to be banned in my opinion. We also tested to allow boar but we should need more people to test that out as it soaks alot of storm armor hits. We went quite intense with our testing trying out ban on smoke screen, preperation, rapid fire, chemical burn, brooding, turrent vs no storm armor. It worked out okay, alot of momvment from both part was neccary to survive. I'd like to hear your opinions and atleast test this out
ximae 2013-05-30 19:47
ven i just posted about that in the season 3 new ruleset.... though i agree we would need more testing with more players.

I think the most balanced setup was:

ban chem burn, rapid fire,aidstation and brooding
unban: boar, battlescars

this way even if boar was soaking damage so are the wizzards immages and at least wiz can stack dodge ond not get killed by dots. Med and i were really getting one kill each in that setup, seemed pretty balanced.
Mr.Mag 2013-07-08 09:44
due to the holiday we're going to finish 2nd season tomorrow
N0F3aR 2013-07-08 11:45
And what happened with the cooperation with loothunter and the award system ? Do you realize that award system and recreation of new skill balance is vital for next season?
Mr.Mag 2013-07-08 13:00
i need to talk with Sin about it. he is responsible for it. next season will probably start after holiday. dunno what rules will apply. we'll see.
N0F3aR 2013-07-08 17:18
What rulz, i have full list of kind balanced rulz. I am testing a lot and know what is going on in the brawling zone right now. For example DH vs Barb no rulz since rapid fire is just crazy. Barb vs Wizard - rune insanity (100% bonus dmg) of wotb banned. Barb vs Monk - maybe wotb banned, but still wotb can be allowd. Barb vs WD - firebats can be on, but wd could chose for example 2 skills from  spirit walk/spirit vessel/blood ritual. Bunker style of DH with BT is kinda stalemate, so this would be good if not allowed. If you interested - let me know, i can give you a lot of feedback.
Also you need to pay attention for other matchs of wd - wd vs dh, vs wizard. Against monk as i know this is kinda balanced fight.
Forti 2013-07-08 18:18
Rulez is not a problem. Thevreal problem is with players. They dont want to play bacuse 1v1. In d2 only tvt was popular as I remember. So all what we have to is waiting for itemization (balanced gear between casuals and nonlifes - Much more than now) and some kind of pvp system - or better tvt :).
Now giv some first real rewards and players will come to us.

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N0F3aR 2013-07-09 00:09
Ofc rulz are problem. I can tell you right now at least 10 players that wont play cuz rulz. And there are much more. Good rulz + award system = league will be very fine.
Forti 2013-07-09 06:26
You cabt make good rulez with this itemization. End

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Forti 2013-07-09 06:42
In d2 it was much easier get high end gear for any class. Here is impossible for most players. Im lookong for same rare shield with 2xx dex 2xx vit or more ofc, 8cc, all ress, 5 wave of light crit and meyby some hp or life regen or reduction. Without this shield my build have nonsens and there is no shiels like this. A saw one for a few bil. And what with the rest of gear? Most players dont have gear because of itemization. Sad :)

Mr.Mag 2013-07-09 10:49
rules are a problem.... to create. tvt is much more easier to balance. there will be a 2-3 months gap in league but i'll try to create a matchmaking system where both player can plan in any rules they want. it should attract some player.
Forti 2013-07-09 18:22
Have you ever playd with me?
N0F3aR 2013-07-09 22:58
Forti we wont offend you but you are not on high pvp lvl. When you reach it, your whole game will change.
KHNO give good proposal, i am testing a lot now so i can give good feedback too.

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